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Are some gigs always ethical to sell but not always to buy?


williambryan392

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I know that scraping and sending unsolicited emails is widely considered unethical, typically against ToS and in some countries illegal.

But I was wondering if people feel the same way about other gigs…

How about buying business plans, ghost writing, rewriting someones CV or LinkedIn, even managing a tinder profile for a buyer? (All gigs I’ve seen).

I am not saying it is wrong to sell these in good faith in any way. I have personally purchased a couple myself over the years. I have no criticism of the sellers or that they are selling them.

But, if a buyer is passing off someone else’s work as their own and gaining from it, is that ethical? I don’t know, where is the line on this?

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Interesting topic. (And risky of getting into controversial. Thus, I’ll merely state my opinion, and throw in a reminder of the forum rules to visitors.)

Ghostwriting, usually there’s permission for it to be passed off.
Rewrites, yeah, I think there’s a slight issue with.
Managing another’s profile… depends on what kind it is. RP and LARP for fictitious characters, I think is okay, when they’re with permission of the creator or the character is outside the domain of royalties (like Santa). If it’s a business page, probably also fine as long. Personal profiles… iffy. Depends if they’re professional or casual.

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Interesting topic. (And risky of getting into controversial. Thus, I’ll merely state my opinion, and throw in a reminder of the forum rules to visitors.)

Ghostwriting, usually there’s permission for it to be passed off.

Rewrites, yeah, I think there’s a slight issue with.

Managing another’s profile… depends on what kind it is. RP and LARP for fictitious characters, I think is okay, when they’re with permission of the creator or the character is outside the domain of royalties (like Santa). If it’s a business page, probably also fine as long. Personal profiles… iffy. Depends if they’re professional or casual.

Definitely don’t want to be controversial, there’s been a bit too much of that today here! I’m just curious and definitely without judgement or criticism.

The ethical side was more from the end users point of view.

Maybe it’s kind of similar to why fiver doesn’t allow gigs to write other peoples fiver gigs.

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This is a great post! And you’ve got me thinking…

I think a gig becomes unethical if the buyer of such a service stands to benefit in some way (usually financially) without any robust challenge or independent / third party scrutiny.

For example, let’s take a CV / resume writing service. A CV’s purpose is to secure a job interview. But it’s in the interview itself where the scrutiny takes place. So in this case, I would say a CV writing service is fine.

Another example, essay writing. An essay will be graded by a lecturer and, unless it causes suspicion, the student will directly benefit by receiving their grade unchallenged. In this case I would say essay writing is not fine.

Yet another example, services that result in spamming. The very definition of spam is ‘unsolicited email’ - so there is definitely no third party scrutiny. So, not fine.

It’s certainly an interesting area of discussion.

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I’m a ghostwriter.

I write blogs for hundreds of other web developers around the globe.

As long as their payment clears, I don’t care what they do with what I’ve written for them.

If you watch TV much, you’ve probably seen a lot of comedy shows. There are writers for stand-up comedian who ghostwrite.

News programs contain news stories that have been ghostwritten (I have 23 years of Broadcasting experience including Assistant Manager at one radio station I worked at for 12 years).

Ghostwriting is far from unethical.

But nice try.

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I’m a ghostwriter.

I write blogs for hundreds of other web developers around the globe.

As long as their payment clears, I don’t care what they do with what I’ve written for them.

If you watch TV much, you’ve probably seen a lot of comedy shows. There are writers for stand-up comedian who ghostwrite.

News programs contain news stories that have been ghostwritten (I have 23 years of Broadcasting experience including Assistant Manager at one radio station I worked at for 12 years).

Ghostwriting is far from unethical.

But nice try.

@looseink @titanglade I’m not saying it is unethical to be a ghostwriter whatsoever. It was never my intention to besmirch what you do. Not at all. I actually used a ghostwriter to give a gift to my goddaughter. Ghostwriters do great, decent, ethical work. I should have been clearer, apologies 🙂

My point is that I think something can be unethical depending on how it is ultimately used by the buyer, as @english_voice pointed out.

For example, I do coaching and consultancy, if someone ghost wrote my ‘business tips’ book for example, and I put it under my name, and used it as a lead magnet for customers that could be considered unethical (on my part, not on the ghostwriters).

Or, ghostwriting a children’s story for me to give my god daughter wouldn’t be unethical, but me submitting it to a competition as my own work would be.

That was my point / question / curiosity.

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I know that scraping and sending unsolicited emails is widely considered unethical, typically against ToS and in some countries illegal.

But I was wondering if people feel the same way about other gigs…

How about buying business plans, ghost writing, rewriting someones CV or LinkedIn, even managing a tinder profile for a buyer? (All gigs I’ve seen).

I am not saying it is wrong to sell these in good faith in any way. I have personally purchased a couple myself over the years. I have no criticism of the sellers or that they are selling them.

But, if a buyer is passing off someone else’s work as their own and gaining from it, is that ethical? I don’t know, where is the line on this?

A buyer is passing off someone else’s work as their own… is that ethical? I don’t know, where is the line on this?

And this is what generated my response.

I may be a ghostwriter, but I’m not a mind reader.

Your question quoted seems pretty clear to me.

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@looseink @titanglade I’m not saying it is unethical to be a ghostwriter whatsoever. It was never my intention to besmirch what you do. Not at all. I actually used a ghostwriter to give a gift to my goddaughter. Ghostwriters do great, decent, ethical work. I should have been clearer, apologies 🙂

My point is that I think something can be unethical depending on how it is ultimately used by the buyer, as @english_voice pointed out.

For example, I do coaching and consultancy, if someone ghost wrote my ‘business tips’ book for example, and I put it under my name, and used it as a lead magnet for customers that could be considered unethical (on my part, not on the ghostwriters).

Or, ghostwriting a children’s story for me to give my god daughter wouldn’t be unethical, but me submitting it to a competition as my own work would be.

That was my point / question / curiosity.

I should have been clearer, apologies 🙂

I’ll fix it. Seriously, I wasn’t having a pop at you or other sellers.

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@looseink @titanglade I’m not saying it is unethical to be a ghostwriter whatsoever. It was never my intention to besmirch what you do. Not at all. I actually used a ghostwriter to give a gift to my goddaughter. Ghostwriters do great, decent, ethical work. I should have been clearer, apologies 🙂

My point is that I think something can be unethical depending on how it is ultimately used by the buyer, as @english_voice pointed out.

For example, I do coaching and consultancy, if someone ghost wrote my ‘business tips’ book for example, and I put it under my name, and used it as a lead magnet for customers that could be considered unethical (on my part, not on the ghostwriters).

Or, ghostwriting a children’s story for me to give my god daughter wouldn’t be unethical, but me submitting it to a competition as my own work would be.

That was my point / question / curiosity.

I make a disclaimer for any homework/tests/grants/proposals I write. I definitely see ways that can be unethical - but then, I have the skills someone was looking for. With an essay, I tell the student to change some of the things I wrote so it is more authentic. Usually people looking to publish will have a second editor go over the work, and that will change it too.

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I make a disclaimer for any homework/tests/grants/proposals I write. I definitely see ways that can be unethical - but then, I have the skills someone was looking for. With an essay, I tell the student to change some of the things I wrote so it is more authentic. Usually people looking to publish will have a second editor go over the work, and that will change it too.

I understand, thanks for the contribution.

To be honest after some of todays posts and topics I just thought it would be interesting and enjoyable to have a slightly different conversation on the forum.

There are so many gigs that could be used as possible examples, it wasn’t specific to ghostwriting, I should’ve and could’ve used my own business templates gig as the example!

It wasn’t about criticising or anything nasty or negative. Just thought it could be an interesting and somewhat different topic to the usual repetition we all see here.

Anyway, I edited the original post, hope that clears things up.

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I understand, thanks for the contribution.

To be honest after some of todays posts and topics I just thought it would be interesting and enjoyable to have a slightly different conversation on the forum.

There are so many gigs that could be used as possible examples, it wasn’t specific to ghostwriting, I should’ve and could’ve used my own business templates gig as the example!

It wasn’t about criticising or anything nasty or negative. Just thought it could be an interesting and somewhat different topic to the usual repetition we all see here.

Anyway, I edited the original post, hope that clears things up.

I liked this topic. It’s nice, for a change.

I agree with what you said, but I guess it’ll differ from case to case. But is it unethical is it’s a partnership? For example, with respect to the college essay. Some people are brilliant but just not good at writing essays, so if they came with a rough draft, and it was rewritten and polished, using their foundation, would it be unethical?

I’m just genuinely curious, so no drastically negative remarks people.

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I make a disclaimer for any homework/tests/grants/proposals I write. I definitely see ways that can be unethical - but then, I have the skills someone was looking for. With an essay, I tell the student to change some of the things I wrote so it is more authentic. Usually people looking to publish will have a second editor go over the work, and that will change it too.

Though be careful of the Fiverr rules that say “taking part in doing someone else’s academic work (which will likely be submitted as the student’s own work)… will not be permitted on our platform.” - in the community standards page and in the TOS it says “Offering to prepare academic works on behalf of Buyers” - isn’t allowed (could get a gig removed etc.).

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I liked this topic. It’s nice, for a change.

I agree with what you said, but I guess it’ll differ from case to case. But is it unethical is it’s a partnership? For example, with respect to the college essay. Some people are brilliant but just not good at writing essays, so if they came with a rough draft, and it was rewritten and polished, using their foundation, would it be unethical?

I’m just genuinely curious, so no drastically negative remarks people.

Some people are brilliant but just not good at writing essays, so if they came with a rough draft, and it was rewritten and polished, using their foundation, would it be unethical?

Yes, because they’d be getting a grade for work that’s not completely their own.

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I have a regular buyer who always leaves me positive feedback via inbox (as opposed to reviewing the order). I always wondered why he was doing that.

Then literally yesterday I was watching some unsolved mysteries compilation on youtube and an NBC documentary popped up in my recommended about a certain dangerous place on earth and a grassroots movement of locals trying to make it less dangerous. By pure accident they showed a few seconds of someone scrolling down of the movement’s website with the posters I did on it.

I was excited ‘cause what are the chances. I don’t follow my work online. When it leaves me - it mostly leaves me for good. I ran to that website, clicked through and found an instagram of an “artist behind the posters”. It was full of posters very obviously made by different people and one guy claiming to be a sole creator of them all.

If they were just offering posters as a retailer, using them as promo material or showcasing them as content, I’d be completely fine with it. But there is a difference between going “this is a curated page of designs I’ve acquired” and “hey, I made all of this”.

(Just my thoughts and how it made me feel. I’m aware of copyright transfer and stuff. I’m not disputing that).

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I have a regular buyer who always leaves me positive feedback via inbox (as opposed to reviewing the order). I always wondered why he was doing that.

Then literally yesterday I was watching some unsolved mysteries compilation on youtube and an NBC documentary popped up in my recommended about a certain dangerous place on earth and a grassroots movement of locals trying to make it less dangerous. By pure accident they showed a few seconds of someone scrolling down of the movement’s website with the posters I did on it.

I was excited ‘cause what are the chances. I don’t follow my work online. When it leaves me - it mostly leaves me for good. I ran to that website, clicked through and found an instagram of an “artist behind the posters”. It was full of posters very obviously made by different people and one guy claiming to be a sole creator of them all.

If they were just offering posters as a retailer, using them as promo material or showcasing them as content, I’d be completely fine with it. But there is a difference between going “this is a curated page of designs I’ve acquired” and “hey, I made all of this”.

(Just my thoughts and how it made me feel. I’m aware of copyright transfer and stuff. I’m not disputing that).

Firstly that’s so cool to see your work in the wild like that! Secondly thank you, that’s what I’m getting at, just curious where the lines are, not to draw them definitively but to discuss them.

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Though be careful of the Fiverr rules that say “taking part in doing someone else’s academic work (which will likely be submitted as the student’s own work)… will not be permitted on our platform.” - in the community standards page and in the TOS it says “Offering to prepare academic works on behalf of Buyers” - isn’t allowed (could get a gig removed etc.).

I offer mainly story writing and building. It’s not geared toward homework.

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Is it unethical to outsource something?

Nope. Not at all.

Will you ask Apple or Tesla to print the name of every worker on the model they work on? Or real estate developers to paste the name of every laborer who worked there? Or restaurants to imprint the name of every waitress and cook that works there?

I don’t know why only mortals are judged on this ethical bias.

No one can do everything.

We need to hire others.

You pay them to create something. They create it. They get money for their time and skill. You get product for your money. End of the story. (Unless you set contracts that abide.)

That’s basic trade.

Eh.

P.S. Unethical and unlawful are different terms that don’t always overlap. Don’t confuse them.

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Is it unethical to outsource something?

Nope. Not at all.

Will you ask Apple or Tesla to print the name of every worker on the model they work on? Or real estate developers to paste the name of every laborer who worked there? Or restaurants to imprint the name of every waitress and cook that works there?

I don’t know why only mortals are judged on this ethical bias.

No one can do everything.

We need to hire others.

You pay them to create something. They create it. They get money for their time and skill. You get product for your money. End of the story. (Unless you set contracts that abide.)

That’s basic trade.

Eh.

P.S. Unethical and unlawful are different terms that don’t always overlap. Don’t confuse them.

Unethical and unlawful are different terms that don’t always overlap. Don’t confuse them.

For sure and I don’t believe I did. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.

“Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people” (Walter Williams)

Re the Tesla example I don’t think anyone reasonably thinks that Elon is in a factory all by himself doing everything.

People may however reasonably think that someone has written a CV or book that’s under their name unless they are told otherwise.

Isn’t this why there is a difference between biographies and auto biographies and why it is typically acknowledged on the cover- to make the creative source clear? To be fair to the reader?

Similarly, an author doesn’t typically create the printing press the book was made on, but few would think they had because this would not be reasonable.

Or, if I go to a restaurant and order broccoli it’s reasonable to think they haven’t grown the vegetable themselves, but to me it’s also reasonable to think that they have cooked it themselves and not ordered it from another restaurant on uber eats and plated them to give the reasonable impression they did.

I keep using the word ‘reasonable’ because that is a metric under the law (at least in the U.K. and the US):

“The reasonable person is a hypothetical person used as a legal standard to determine whether the conduct of the parties in a case was proper in the circumstances. … It is the standard of conduct adopted by persons of ordinary intelligence and prudence.”

So in short I hypothesise that a reasonable person won’t think that Elon does everything, but a reasonable person would think he’d have written the book entitled ‘Elon’s story, my biography, written by Elon Musk’. They would not think the same of ‘Elon’s story, my autobiography, written by Elon Musk & X author’.

Like i said, I’m not criticising anyone, everyone faces ethical conundrums in their work, just curious if, when and where people drew their own lines.

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Unethical and unlawful are different terms that don’t always overlap. Don’t confuse them.

For sure and I don’t believe I did. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.

“Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people” (Walter Williams)

Re the Tesla example I don’t think anyone reasonably thinks that Elon is in a factory all by himself doing everything.

People may however reasonably think that someone has written a CV or book that’s under their name unless they are told otherwise.

Isn’t this why there is a difference between biographies and auto biographies and why it is typically acknowledged on the cover- to make the creative source clear? To be fair to the reader?

Similarly, an author doesn’t typically create the printing press the book was made on, but few would think they had because this would not be reasonable.

Or, if I go to a restaurant and order broccoli it’s reasonable to think they haven’t grown the vegetable themselves, but to me it’s also reasonable to think that they have cooked it themselves and not ordered it from another restaurant on uber eats and plated them to give the reasonable impression they did.

I keep using the word ‘reasonable’ because that is a metric under the law (at least in the U.K. and the US):

“The reasonable person is a hypothetical person used as a legal standard to determine whether the conduct of the parties in a case was proper in the circumstances. … It is the standard of conduct adopted by persons of ordinary intelligence and prudence.”

So in short I hypothesise that a reasonable person won’t think that Elon does everything, but a reasonable person would think he’d have written the book entitled ‘Elon’s story, my biography, written by Elon Musk’. They would not think the same of ‘Elon’s story, my autobiography, written by Elon Musk & X author’.

Like i said, I’m not criticising anyone, everyone faces ethical conundrums in their work, just curious if, when and where people drew their own lines.

So in short I hypothesise that a reasonable person won’t think that Elon does everything, but a reasonable person would think he’d have written the book entitled ‘Elon’s story, my biography, written by Elon Musk’. They would not think the same of ‘Elon’s story, my autobiography, written by Elon Musk & X author’.

And why would anyone think Elon will write the truth only? Or that he will expose all of his secrets? Or that he hasn’t signed NDAs that do not allow him to be 100% open? Or that his editor and reputation manager didn’t convince him to skip or alter a story?

A reasonable person will think all that and won’t care much!

I keep using the word ‘reasonable’ because that is a metric under the law (at least in the U.K. and the US):

“The reasonable person is a hypothetical person used as a legal standard to determine whether the conduct of the parties in a case was proper in the circumstances. … It is the standard of conduct adopted by persons of ordinary intelligence and prudence.”

There is something similar in pretty much every written or unwritten law around the world.

The problem is…

You have circled back to where we started…

318106_2.png williambryan392:

Unethical and unlawful are different terms that don’t always overlap. Don’t confuse them.

For sure and I don’t believe I did. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.

“Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people” (Walter Williams)

And if you have not, then what defines a reasonable person?

What is ordinary?

Do ordinary people reason or let emotions guide them? Isn’t that contradictory?

Is science ordinary? I know it isn’t!

How about belief?

Now…

I can go on to describe how different kind of reasonable people think opposite. But I don’t think we really need to get into that!

What I do believe is — someone may only think you’ve written your resume until they aren’t aware of resume writing services. Smart ones know that such privileges exist since centuries and won’t be shocked.

If you have been reading any amazing books lately, it’s cited in Good to Great, Lean Startup, and pretty much every business book. Do not hire people based on what they have done. Go for what they can do!

The question is…

Do we want to optimize the world for not-so-smart kinds?

Try it.

Smart ones will manage to come up. Every. Single. Time. Regardless of whichever theory you like.

Edit: I too don’t wanna contradict or hurt anybody. Just offering another perspective.

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So in short I hypothesise that a reasonable person won’t think that Elon does everything, but a reasonable person would think he’d have written the book entitled ‘Elon’s story, my biography, written by Elon Musk’. They would not think the same of ‘Elon’s story, my autobiography, written by Elon Musk & X author’.

And why would anyone think Elon will write the truth only? Or that he will expose all of his secrets? Or that he hasn’t signed NDAs that do not allow him to be 100% open? Or that his editor and reputation manager didn’t convince him to skip or alter a story?

A reasonable person will think all that and won’t care much!

I keep using the word ‘reasonable’ because that is a metric under the law (at least in the U.K. and the US):

“The reasonable person is a hypothetical person used as a legal standard to determine whether the conduct of the parties in a case was proper in the circumstances. … It is the standard of conduct adopted by persons of ordinary intelligence and prudence.”

There is something similar in pretty much every written or unwritten law around the world.

The problem is…

You have circled back to where we started…

323555_2.png wordsfire:

Unethical and unlawful are different terms that don’t always overlap. Don’t confuse them.

For sure and I don’t believe I did. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.

“Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people” (Walter Williams)

And if you have not, then what defines a reasonable person?

What is ordinary?

Do ordinary people reason or let emotions guide them? Isn’t that contradictory?

Is science ordinary? I know it isn’t!

How about belief?

Now…

I can go on to describe how different kind of reasonable people think opposite. But I don’t think we really need to get into that!

What I do believe is — someone may only think you’ve written your resume until they aren’t aware of resume writing services. Smart ones know that such privileges exist since centuries and won’t be shocked.

If you have been reading any amazing books lately, it’s cited in Good to Great, Lean Startup, and pretty much every business book. Do not hire people based on what they have done. Go for what they can do!

The question is…

Do we want to optimize the world for not-so-smart kinds?

Try it.

Smart ones will manage to come up. Every. Single. Time. Regardless of whichever theory you like.

Edit: I too don’t wanna contradict or hurt anybody. Just offering another perspective.

what defines a reasonable person ?

I can go on to describe how different kind of reasonable people think opposite

Sure it’s a struggle so we depend on the courts ultimately, like you say…

There is something similar in pretty much every written or unwritten law around the world.

There is a reason well functioning societies need this mechanism.

Anyway, I expect this is maybe where we disagree…

why would anyone think Elon will write the truth only? Or that he will expose all of his secrets?

I don’t expect any biography, auto or otherwise to contain ‘all his secrets’ but I do have the belief that people should be and are fundamentally truthful and honest in what they do, as opposed to not. Sure, some people aren’t and I’m sure everyone’s lied at some point but omission isn’t automatically dishonest IMO unless the omission intentionally reinforces something that is dishonest.

too don’t wanna contradict or hurt anybody.

100% These are great points and I’m enjoying a conversation not based around staying online 24/7, bad CS or difficult buyers 😂

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what defines a reasonable person ?

I can go on to describe how different kind of reasonable people think opposite

Sure it’s a struggle so we depend on the courts ultimately, like you say…

There is something similar in pretty much every written or unwritten law around the world.

There is a reason well functioning societies need this mechanism.

Anyway, I expect this is maybe where we disagree…

why would anyone think Elon will write the truth only? Or that he will expose all of his secrets?

I don’t expect any biography, auto or otherwise to contain ‘all his secrets’ but I do have the belief that people should be and are fundamentally truthful and honest in what they do, as opposed to not. Sure, some people aren’t and I’m sure everyone’s lied at some point but omission isn’t automatically dishonest IMO unless the omission intentionally reinforces something that is dishonest.

too don’t wanna contradict or hurt anybody.

100% These are great points and I’m enjoying a conversation not based around staying online 24/7, bad CS or difficult buyers 😂

100% These are great points and I’m enjoying a conversation not based around staying online 24/7, bad CS or difficult buyers 😂

Oh, please. Don’t remind me.

Most of these questions on morals and ethics always end up in one party preaching law. They always seem to forget the difference between following a law and creating one. If we constrain ourselves with what exist, evolution will soon defy us.

I do have the belief that people should be and are fundamentally truthful and honest in what they do, as opposed to not.

That’s a nice belief.

I’m not challenging it. I know why beliefs are called beliefs. But… I’d love to know the reasoning behind it. And since, I’m gonna go take a shower. I’ll suggest you read Beyond good and evil by Nietzsche.

He is not nice.

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100% These are great points and I’m enjoying a conversation not based around staying online 24/7, bad CS or difficult buyers 😂

Oh, please. Don’t remind me.

Most of these questions on morals and ethics always end up in one party preaching law. They always seem to forget the difference between following a law and creating one. If we constrain ourselves with what exist, evolution will soon defy us.

I do have the belief that people should be and are fundamentally truthful and honest in what they do, as opposed to not.

That’s a nice belief.

I’m not challenging it. I know why beliefs are called beliefs. But… I’d love to know the reasoning behind it. And since, I’m gonna go take a shower. I’ll suggest you read Beyond good and evil by Nietzsche.

He is not nice.

Beyond good and evil by Nietzsche .

I read it at uni about 15 years ago.

Truth is we could go back and forth for days, others have been debating this for centuries, but thank you for allowing me to challenge you, in the words of Nietzsche “the higher man courts opposition, and provokes it”. I respect you for accepting my opposition.

As for why I believe it it, I suppose I think if people were predisposed to lie rather than tell the truth then trust, relationships and society would be very hard to build. Why would you trust anyone if most people you met lied to you.

For example, I believe that you are sharing your sincere and truthful beliefs here, because I think why wouldn’t you be. If I just assumed you were automatically untruthful I wouldn’t bother engaging.

As for books, my most recent was Trillion Dollar Coach, it covers how early leaders at Google and others were coached. It says to lead with love, openness and honesty makes for the most trusted and impactful leader. I agree with it. I always respond better to love, openness and honesty than to the opposite. So do my teams in my experience.

If you’re ever in London let me know, we can continue this over a pint, if the pubs ever open again!

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I make a disclaimer for any homework/tests/grants/proposals I write. I definitely see ways that can be unethical - but then, I have the skills someone was looking for. With an essay, I tell the student to change some of the things I wrote so it is more authentic. Usually people looking to publish will have a second editor go over the work, and that will change it too.

With an essay, I tell the student to change some of the things I wrote so it is more authentic.

Unethical Services

Fiverr’s marketplace is open for sellers to offer any creative and productive service they wish to propose. With that being said, we ask to refrain from offering any unethical service. For example, taking part in doing someone else’s academic work (which will likely be submitted as the student’s own work) or requesting academic work to be done for you, is unethical since it violates most schools’ Honor Codes and constitutes copyright infringement. Fiverr does not allow this type of fraudulent activities and it will not be permitted on our platform.

The above is from the Community Standards.

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